Self-excluded players, their deposits & possible revenue for the casino & affiliate

**vardan** · 10 April 2018, 11:09 am

Hi everyone,

In January I had a new signed up player with one of aff programs and the player deposited ?000 and lost near ?000. The aff program doesn't want to pay the commission generated from this amount and the argument is that the player has self-excluded. To be more exact, first they told me that the data was incorrect, then may be the player was fraudulent and ultimately the player has self-excluded.

I had several conversations with the aff manager asking him to explain why I can't receive my commission and provide proofs and reasons why it is impossible. The answer almost always was that they can't provide such proofs or the details about the player are confidential. By the way, the deposit and net revenue information still is available on my aff dashboard.

After a few days of negotiation they told me that the player was self-excluded and the commission can't be paid. I asked them to provide information that whether if the player had self-excluded they returned him his deposits and whether they can prove that fact? The answer was that they can't provide such information.

So, I would like to ask our community to share their experience or any information related with self-excluded players and their deposits: does the bookmaker or casino return the deposit or if they don't do it, do they have revenue from the lost amount and do affiliates earn commission from the revenue generated from self-excluded players?

Thanks.

**PromoteCasino** · 10 April 2018, 11:25 am

I am seeing this more and more, when I challenged a program saying a sign up had disappeared they too told me they had self-excluded. This is no reason to not show them under my account even if he is inactive. This particular person did not deposit a large amount but self-excluded the next day.

Very fishy if you ask me

But like I said more and more it is happening I get a decent player and even when they are winning they stop playing. Sometimes after a week sometimes longer. I do not know too many players that stop playing or betting when they are winning. Do you?

**vardan** · 10 April 2018, 11:47 am

Originally Posted by PromoteCasino

I do not know too many players that stop playing or betting when they are winning. Do you?

Usually not, because the winnings encourage the players play more and more. In my case the question is that the player referred from my website had deposited, played and lost money.

Now I want to understand whether the operators get revenue from self-excluded player's lost amount and if so, whether the affiliates get their % from the operator's revenue.

**PromoteCasino** · 10 April 2018, 11:50 am

My understanding is that you should be entitled to any rev share earned as they have certainly earned. There is no way they are going to return the player his money.

Is this just another scam that they are pulling, I think it could be.

**Scampi** · 10 April 2018, 12:06 pm

Name the program and see if anyone else has experienced problems with them. Also, there is no way the casino would refund a player that has self-excluded, and there is no reason why they shouldn't pay you what you are owed.

**vardan** · 10 April 2018, 12:17 pm

Originally Posted by PromoteCasino

There is no way they are going to return the player his money.

Is this just another scam that they are pulling, I think it could be.

If they provided me with an official document that they had returned the money to the self-excluded player, I would apologize for their time and close this conversation. But instead, they just keep denying to pay my commission and this is more like a scam than a normal relation between partners.

**vardan** · 10 April 2018, 12:31 pm

Originally Posted by Scampi

Name the program and see if anyone else has experienced problems with them. Also, there is no way the casino would refund a player that has self-excluded, and there is no reason why they shouldn't pay you what you are owed.

I will do that, but in another thread, this one is more for understanding the possible development of the case and what options there are. I wouldn't like to be wrong either here or against them.

That's why I am asking your opinion and experience with such cases: self-excluded player, deposits, lost money and rev share from that.

**Renee** · 10 April 2018, 8:17 pm

There are scenarios where what they are telling you could be 100% true - eg players who deliberately alter their details to get around the automatic block of self excluded players (could be classed as fraud - happens all the time), and in that case their deposit would be returned because they were playing self excluded.

People who have gambling problems will try anything to get their fix. I see it all the time. Player just changes something about their details so the automatic checks won't pick them up. Could be a different email address and an initial in their name or something else. Could even be using someone else's card.

**Malikbhai** · 10 April 2018, 8:40 pm

Renee is right. Happened to me on more than a few occasions. Loss of commissions were under 10k.

More apparent for the UK market somehow. But, like she said; there are genuine cases of people that do need help. Nice for the operators to suspend problem gamblers.

**RacingJim** · 11 April 2018, 6:06 am

I guess it depends then on the order of events.

If the player was a first time joiner (i.e. never had an account before), lost some money then self-excluded, then the casino will have the money and you should be entitled to your share. In this scenario the casino could remove the player details and it could be a bit of a snidey way to shave the affiliate, which of course would not be asurprise in this industry.

If the case is like Renee states could happen, then obviously that's fair enough.

**vardan** · 11 April 2018, 6:19 am

Originally Posted by Renee

There are scenarios where what they are telling you could be 100% true - eg players who deliberately alter their details to get around the automatic block of self excluded players (could be classed as fraud - happens all the time), and in that case their deposit would be returned because they were playing self excluded.

People who have gambling problems will try anything to get their fix. I see it all the time. Player just changes something about their details so the automatic checks won't pick them up. Could be a different email address and an initial in their name or something else. Could even be using someone else's card.

I agree with you, any scenario can happen and any player has the right to self-exclude or close the account. The question is whether the operator refunds the deposit to the self-excluded player or not. If they refund the deposit, can I ask a proof for that? Or if they don't refund and have revenue from the lost amount, shouldn't they pay my commission?

Could you remember a case in your practice, have you had an issue like this with your affiliates and how was the issue resolved?

**vardan** · 11 April 2018, 6:49 am

The player registered in December 2017, made the first deposit, played and lost some amount. Then he deposited the last sum which I have published here and lost almost all in January 2018.

My commission from that was available on my aff dashboard until the 10th or 11th of February, then it was removed. I contacted them and they first told me that there was a problem with the data, then that maybe the player was fraudulent and the last time that the player had self-excluded.

As they don't provide any proof, I guess this is a "shaving", otherwise how is it possible to have 3 different answers why they don't want to pay earned commission?

**Triple7** · 11 April 2018, 8:31 am

Originally Posted by vardan

I will do that, but in another thread, this one is more for understanding the possible development of the case and what options there are. I wouldn't like to be wrong either here or against them.

That's why I am asking your opinion and experience with such cases: self-excluded player, deposits, lost money and rev share from that.

I think the name of the program says quite a lot.

**optival** · 11 April 2018, 8:37 am

Wild guess, it's LivePartners (netbet)

**vardan** · 11 April 2018, 9:27 am

Originally Posted by Triple7

I think the name of the program says quite a lot.

Yes, that's true. They were platinum sponsors of GPWA in 2015 and 2016 and many of us are promoting them now, so I don't want to have a negative impact on their relationship with other affiliates. I don't exclude any scenario, it is possible what they are saying is true, but I need them to provide some documents on that. If they didn't gain any revenue, of course they don't have to pay me a penny, but what if they didn't refund the player and don't want to pay my commission?

I didn't have any significant issue with them in the past, there were some kind of problems related with the bonus they offer and an important point too: after stopping their sponsorship here, I noticed that click/sign-up ratio fell drastically. I told them about this, but the answer was that everything is correct, the tracking links work fine, etc. Anyway, the stats are singing a different song.

**Renee** · 12 April 2018, 2:48 am

Originally Posted by vardan

I agree with you, any scenario can happen and any player has the right to self-exclude or close the account. The question is whether the operator refunds the deposit to the self-excluded player or not. If they refund the deposit, can I ask a proof for that? Or if they don't refund and have revenue from the lost amount, shouldn't they pay my commission?

Could you remember a case in your practice, have you had an issue like this with your affiliates and how was the issue resolved?

I have. An affiliate didn't trust that the scenario I mentioned happened. Of course I cannot send screenshots of backend. I told the affiliate that, and said if you can think of something else I can do to show you proof I'm open to it. The affiliate ended up saying it's ok they trust I'm telling the truth and that was it. So I have no advice for you on getting proof unfortunately. I'm really not sure what they could send you to prove it without breaking privacy/security rules.

**vardan** · 12 April 2018, 5:05 am

Originally Posted by optival

Wild guess, it's LivePartners (netbet)

Exact answer: no.

**vardan** · 12 April 2018, 5:11 am

Originally Posted by Renee

I'm really not sure what they could send you to prove it without breaking privacy/security rules.

As far as I understand you correctly, the privacy/security rules can be perfect tools in the hands of unethical operators for stealing the affiliates.We don't have any(?) mechanism to ask any proof because the affiliate managers and the operators at any moment can stop any conversation, any clarification by arguing it with privacy/security rules.

Maybe I am too negative, but now I am sure that every operator can easily detag players and if someone wants to clarify (if the affiliate finds out that the player has been detagged of course, because it can be done so fast, that the affiliate can even miss the fact) they will say that the player has self-excluded, closed the account or flied to the moon and there is no chance for affiliates to have any proof.

I guess how many time that rules worked perfectly for operators and left the affiliate without earned commissions.

What if a player signs up and loses a million? The sportsbook or casino can detag him, get the money and notify(or not) the affiliate that the player has self-excluded. Now go and ask them to prove it.

Only the words are not sufficient, there must be another mechanism for such cases. The programs started to demand our ID cards and passports, they want to know every important detail about us, so why I, as a business partner can't demand transparency?

**Renee** · 12 April 2018, 7:12 pm

Originally Posted by vardan

As far as I understand you correctly, the privacy/security rules can be perfect tools in the hands of unethical operators for stealing the affiliates.We don't have any(?) mechanism to ask any proof because the affiliate managers and the operators at any moment can stop any conversation, any clarification by arguing it with privacy/security rules.

Maybe I am too negative, but now I am sure that every operator can easily detag players and if someone wants to clarify (if the affiliate finds out that the player has been detagged of course, because it can be done so fast, that the affiliate can even miss the fact) they will say that the player has self-excluded, closed the account or flied to the moon and there is no chance for affiliates to have any proof.

I guess how many time that rules worked perfectly for operators and left the affiliate without earned commissions.

What if a player signs up and loses a million? The sportsbook or casino can detag him, get the money and notify(or not) the affiliate that the player has self-excluded. Now go and ask them to prove it.

Only the words are not sufficient, there must be another mechanism for such cases. The programs started to demand our ID cards and passports, they want to know every important detail about us, so why I, as a business partner can't demand transparency?

As I said, if you can think of something else that can prove it that will not break any privacy or security rules, I'm sure the operator will be open to it.
If you don't trust the affiliate program, don't work with them.

That's the only option.

**vardan** · 13 April 2018, 8:32 am

Originally Posted by Renee

As I said, if you can think of something else that can prove it that will not break any privacy or security rules, I'm sure the operator will be open to it.
If you don't trust the affiliate program, don't work with them.

That's the only option.

Well Renee, as a multiple Best Affiliate Manager Award Winner and respected affiliate manager do you really think that the phrase "If you don't trust the affiliate program, don't work with them" is correct to use here? The trust is not constant, it can be lost or gained along the time depending on many factors.

It is not very clear to me what you mean by saying "That's the only option."? Do you mean to think of something that can prove the fact without breaking the privacy rule or to not work with the program if I don't trust them? Please clarify that for me, I have answers for both of them.

Anyway, I have to mention, that only you as an affiliate manager responded to my thread, much appreciated. I am sure that many aff managers have read this and haven't said anything, because this situation can happen to them, too and publicly posted opinions can work against them later.

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