Rakeback rebellion!

**universal4** · 7 July 2009, 12:06 pm

Wouldn't you think the rooms offering rakeback themselves would put affiliates on a more level playing field?

I agree, and as someone posted earlier, it's too damn bad the rooms didn't realize this a long time ago, as now we are in a situation that needs fixing.

It's always going to happen that affiliates that send more traffic are going to get better deal (higher rakeback) than the smaller guys. It's just business.

I understand this, however, it is a recipe for disaster in a way. A few years ago in the UK we had no builders because none had been trained and were in the ****. Now if the operators look after only the bigger affs then we will end up with the same in our industry. Yes give the big guys the cream, give them freebies, send them flowers do whatever, but dont give them the chance to offer more than anyone else because sooner or later there will be no one else. Then when there is no one else the big affs will be telling the rooms what to do and shouting the odds.

I agree with a portion of this.

Yes, I think it is a recipe for problems in the long term.

(IMO) I think this is forces the smaller affiliates to be much more selective about the rooms they will work with (if they bother with poker at all) and it also hurts those rooms offering all the better deals and incentives to the larger affiliates over the long term because many of the smaller affiliates wil choose to work more closely with rooms offering more fair deals accross the board.

Those affiliates will also give more exposure to those rooms thus reducing the overall coverage that some rooms could reciev had they been willing to treat all affiliates more fairly.

I do not think this will cause those operators to close up shop (although it could) but those rooms that give the best deals to ALL affiliates no matter their size will always find their way on to my sites much faster and earn more exposure than those that do not.

The idea of rakeback being offered by affiliates, exasterbates this whole scenario, for many of the reasons stated in a few posts above.

Rick
Universal4

**universal4** · 7 July 2009, 12:12 pm

However Marcus continued that there was a need for the separation of responsibilities between affiliates and operators. “The role or retention and player life value is the responsibility of the operators, whilst the role of the affiliate is acquisition of players, he said.

I agree very much with this statement, and look forward to more operators using rakeback (which is basically an extension of a loyalty program) for retention and keeping the burden of that on the operator and taking it out of the hands of the affiliate.

Rick
Universal4

**Dominique** · 7 July 2009, 1:23 pm

I am not a small affiliate, and I got screwed as well. Rakeback is not an issue of small versus big, it's an issue of generating new players versus stealing existing players and moving them around.

I can attract all kinds of new poker players, give them the resources they need to become good players and get them started.

As soon as they become better players and start generating income the rakeback aff comes and steals them out of my account and resells them over and over to various programs who are willing to pay the price.

I am left with nothing for my work.

The programs they were sold to are out of the money they paid because the rakeback aff will move that player to the next room that offers more.

Affiliates who generate the players in the first place lose out, and the rooms lose out because there is no brand loyalty.

Even the established rakeback aff loses out because new blood comes int the play and underbids them.

I have preached this over and over years ago when rakeback first launched and it took the rooms this long to realize they are biting temselves in the axx.

PFFFFFT!

**Chalkie** · 7 July 2009, 2:33 pm

Originally Posted by Dominique

I am not a small affiliate, and I got screwed as well. Rakeback is not an issue of small versus big, it's an issue of generating new players versus stealing existing players and moving them around.

I can attract all kinds of new poker players, give them the resources they need to become good players and get them started.

As soon as they become better players and start generating income the rakeback aff comes and steals them out of my account and resells them over and over to various programs who are willing to pay the price.

I am left with nothing for my work.

The programs they were sold to are out of the money they paid because the rakeback aff will move that player to the next room that offers more.

Affiliates who generate the players in the first place lose out, and the rooms lose out because there is no brand loyalty.

Even the established rakeback aff loses out because new blood comes int the play and underbids them.

I have preached this over and over years ago when rakeback first launched and it took the rooms this long to realize they are biting temselves in the axx.

PFFFFFT!

If the normal poker aff thinks that the rakeback aff steals his players then using the same method of deduction the poker player could argue that the poker aff is stealing his money.

After all the poker aff knows that the poker player can get rakeback but still refers him without it, the same as the rakeback aff refers players to a room with rakeback in the knowledge that they will already be a poker player somewhere.

Not saying that either is right or wrong but there is an arguament against what you are saying.

You say you are left with nothing for your work, but you are really as you either get CPA or will have earned from them until they find out about rakeback!

Yes you lose out on the continued earnings but at least you have earned some.

The rooms dont lose out because its just a big merry go round for them.

Some they lose some they gain.

Dom i am not shooting you down just offering an alternative way of looking at it. The way you explain it above any one would think that rakeback affs run round poker rooms shouting roll up roll up let me tell you about rakeback, but in reality its just a natural progression for players to find out about it.

I mean if you search poker or online poker on google its a few pages before you find any mention of rakeback. You need to search * rakeback to get to the rakeback sites, so rakeback affs are hardly maaking in roads to people with no knowledge of it.

This is not saying that i dont agree its a complete mess and needs sorting, but i cannot agree that rakeback affs are just thieves.

Yours Dick "Chalkie" Turpin

**Dominique** · 7 July 2009, 4:32 pm

Firstly, the poker player is not generally attracted away to another poker room, but literally guided to go against the room's T&Cs to switch to an account that does not belong to the referring affiliate. That is theft and immoral. There are a ton of rakeback sites out there teaching you step by step how to cheat your way into another account, even in rooms that strictly forbid it (or say so publically

).

Secondly, poker players are better off with bonuses until they reach a certain level of play. Up to that time earnings from that player are negligible while the cost of providing the introductory learning materials is high. Poker has proven to be a drain on my pocketbook and is always a minus in my books. The only reason I keep it up now is because I have already occurred the highest expenses. But I give no time or money to it anymore, I have been waiting in the trenches for years now anticipating the rooms to finally see the light.

If the rooms handled rakeback, all players could take advantage of it, no players would be stolen out from under their referring affiliate and moved to a new affiliate within the same room, and rooms could enjoy brand loyalty. Players could choose if the wanted a bonus or rakeback and that would take care of that. Affiliates could concentrate on making the market grow by recruiting new players instead of leeching off the work of others by recycling the same players over and over again.

The entire industry loses out if no one wants to bother recruiting new players. It gets stagnant.

And no, it's not a happy merry go round for the rooms. Each struggles to overbid the other - until they hit a ceiling they can't get past.

The new, hungry rooms are the ones paying the highest in hopes of attracting some good value players - just to see them move to the next room in a short while. It drains their resources and makes them unable to compete.

Even years ago rakeback affiliates themselves were unhappy because new rakeback affiliates came into the niche and undercut them. They want rakeback regulated but not operated by the rooms.

Geez guys, what goes around comes around... don't be crying a river when your players are stolen by someone who underbids you! You created the system!

**Chalkie** · 7 July 2009, 5:07 pm

I dont disagree with you Dom, we just see it from different angles i suppose and each have our points that are valid.

Like i said much earlier in this thread it is no coincidence that the most successful room that does actually offer rakeback is Tilt.

They are pretty dam striaghtforward with their rules and very good at finding people who open second accounts.

If every room operated in this way we would be much better off imo

I dont partake in the multi accountament game - i do tell people to delete cookies but only incase they sign up expecting rakeback and have been to the room through a non rakeback site - this is purely to stop any future upset and confusion.

I even dedicate a page to why people should not open a second account.

On the other hand i have no issue with introducing existing players to a different room with rakeback as if they have found their way to me they are after this and i am not introducing them to it.

I try my hardest to keep any rakeback deal away from any non rakeback site i have and dont really make a habit of recruiting on forums either.

I do agree that if it was done away with the whole game would be better - just cannot see it happening and whilst that is the case i will continue as is.

Actually if it did happen i would have a lot of redundant websites

**Dominique** · 7 July 2009, 5:16 pm

I certainly wasn't talking about you personally, Chalkie, but about what I see across the web.

I appreciate that you didn't take it personal.

I get a bit carried away on the topic, those of you who attend conventions know. It hasn't kept me from being friends with rakeback guys, in the end we are all affiliates and still share a lot of concerns.

That said, I have always regarded rakeback as a burden on the industry and still do. And when it disappears (and in my mind there is no doubt now and never was that it's a "when" and not an "if") I will still say "good riddance".

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