Rakeback rebellion!

**JonOfFinsbury** · 6 July 2009, 11:13 am

Anyone else seen the story on EGRmagazine about poker operators wanting to shut down affiliate rakeback? Outrageous!

**JonOfFinsbury** · 6 July 2009, 11:15 am

It's called 'William Hill Online COO Marcus issues Rakeback rallying call'.

**Chalkie** · 6 July 2009, 11:42 am

Its here:

https://www.egrmagazine.com/news/indu...ing-call.thtml

I notice my comment got published too!

I bet it would not have done if i had put what i really wanted to though.

**LiveCasinoPartners** · 6 July 2009, 5:19 pm

I really never liked the rake back model. They are right in the fact that new players are not generated in this model, only a redistribution (for the most part).

Imagine the affiliates who marketed poker pre-rackback.. and then had their players redistributed across the board. Competition breads better and more innovative products.. I agree in thinking that rakeback is a form of canabalism of existing programs.

**pompeyrayuk** · 6 July 2009, 5:27 pm

As an affiliate I have never really promoted a rakeback programme of any kind.
As a player I play sit n go's and mtt's so rakeback isnt a factor.

**Chalkie** · 6 July 2009, 5:33 pm

Originally Posted by pompeyrayuk

As an affiliate I have never really promoted a rakeback programme of any kind.
As a player I play sit n go's and mtt's so rakeback isnt a factor.

As a player why would that be?

rakeback is paid out on all games at a good many rooms

**Chalkie** · 6 July 2009, 5:37 pm

If you consider that Poker Stars dont pay rakeback and the fact that Full Tilt police new accountaments vehenemently it sort of leads to the fact that rakeback probably is not a great business model!

Based on the fact that there is not a poker room bigger than either.

**universal4** · 6 July 2009, 7:00 pm

I totally agree with Wagerx on his statement.

Many of us lost existing players to that model.

Rick
Universal4

**Dominique** · 6 July 2009, 7:53 pm

Originally Posted by WagerX

I really never liked the rake back model. They are right in the fact that new players are not generated in this model, only a redistribution (for the most part).

Imagine the affiliates who marketed poker pre-rackback.. and then had their players redistributed across the board. Competition breads better and more innovative products.. I agree in thinking that rakeback is a form of canabalism of existing programs.

Very well said, I strongly agree.

I am one of those affiliates and have not put any effort into poker ever since.

**TheGooner** · 6 July 2009, 8:07 pm

What I've never understood is that if poker rooms believed that their current rake was too high - and that they were losing players - why didn't they simply drop the rake across the board - or at high end tables - and advertise it as such ?

Why not take charge (bearing in mind that they have all the players stats) and deliver rake back to the players directly - using their existing points schemes as a model?

All this p!ssing about using rackback affiliates as the middleman and paying differing percentages might have made sense as subtle secretive ways to lure whales - but by the time it became mainstream it's ludicrous.

I think that rakeback - and rakeback affiliates - is a model that has had it's day.

**Chalkie** · 6 July 2009, 8:53 pm

I am feeling that i am not safe in this thread

but i will put my tin hat on and get involved anyway!

As i mentioned earlier in the thread the 2 biggest rooms have not made the same directional moves as all the other sheep. It has done them no halm by the look of it.

Some would say that rakeback affiliates have moved with the times and taken advantage of the trends. Thats reasonable enough imo and should not be knocked unless its been tried.

Others say that rakeback affiliates are as bad as the whole rakeback system itself, thats maybe a fair enough claim too.

Through my rakeback sites i get approached daily by new rooms asking for position and offering all sorts of percentages. Jeezus, some rooms offer the rakeback deals before they have even opened.

Through my non rakeback sites i never get approached by anyone at all.

On numerous player forums i see all manner of deals offered for illegal ipoker skins, yet i rarely seee illegal offers of rakeback for rooms that allow rakeback. As a player i was offered 60% and the usual VIP stuff at 1 ipoker skin, told em where to shove it mind you as i hate ipoker as a player tbh.

The problem has to lie with the rooms not the affiliates. If they never allowed it in the first place they would not be moaning about it now, but they did and why did they? Probably because in the early days it was a way of offering it only to the people who knew about it, which to a point it still is. In the early days they were better off giving to a few and not to all but nowadays the divide between those that know and those that dont has moved much closer.

Could be said that they did not allow it but the affiliates did it to get a foothold, that dont wear with me.

Some rooms will give it out with a phone call, do they then penalise the original affiliate? Not sure i know the answer to that 1.

Whats the answer? Could they really take it away now? I suggest no.

Then we have illegal rakeback deals and i just aint going there!

How will it ever be solved?

Perhaps its down to the affiliates and not the rooms to put an end to the problems. I dont know, however, i do know its easy to knock it but not so easy to come up with the solution.

Tin hat firmly in place and digging my trench as i speak.

**bb1web** · 6 July 2009, 8:59 pm

I been crying that from the start.

rakeback is a model for everybody losing including the players because in the end ... unless the poker room is paying out the rakeback straight to the players ... the cut-throat rakeback site eventually slows down in player aquistition and thus the pinch is felt and they stop paying their debts to players.

Needless to say once that happens the "middleman" isn't any longer in a desire to correspond with players so when they have trouble they have nobody to turn to for support like they would have had waiting for them if they had chosen that poker room thru a reputable guide/portal which actually does things without the rakeback ... therefore not only allowing that entity a profit margin in which to operate such service but also giving them every reason to want to step in and help when there is a problem.

**bb1web** · 6 July 2009, 9:07 pm

*my last post was actually meant in response to what Gooner said

this to what Chalk had to say

I know its done all the time but offering one person a better deal than another is incredibly stupid.

It is even stupider to put one aff in a position where they can offer something more than the next one because then it becomes a question of "why should I even bother promoting a place I can't compete with other affs?".

Some may say that's not that big of a deal, ... so the bigger affs get the better spoils but where that thinking is wrong is that you never know who's going to be the next mega-aff ... and I would guess that not many people are going to forget having been slighted in such a manner back when they were still growing.

I wouldn't.

......

ps

Chalk you don't need to feel unsafe. It should all be talked about and its always a good thing to get perspectives from many view points.

**Chalkie** · 6 July 2009, 9:22 pm

Originally Posted by bb1web

*my last post was actually meant in response to what Gooner said

this to what Chalk had to say

I know its done all the time but offering one person a better deal than another is incredibly stupid.

It is even stupider to put one aff in a position where they can offer something more than the next one because then it becomes a question of "why should I even bother promoting a place I can't compete with other affs?".

Some may say that's not that big of a deal, ... so the bigger affs get the better spoils but where that thinking is wrong is that you never know who's going to be the next mega-aff ... and I would guess that not many people are going to forget having been slighted in such a manner back when they were still growing.

I wouldn't.

......

ps

Chalk you don't need to feel unsafe. It should all be talked about and its always a good thing to get perspectives from many view points.

I guessed your response was to the gooner

I agree with what you are saying as well.

In my experience the bigger affs always get treated too well and the smaller affs have to scratch around for any little crumb. This is why i take onboard some of the newer rooms offering a decent deal - risking the collapse and losses - just to get a head start over the bigger affs.

I have another post to follow this which i saved to allow me to answer you first.

The next post is just a generalisation and my owwn thoughts not directed at aany ones posts in here so far.

**Chalkie** · 6 July 2009, 9:23 pm

Truth of the matter is whilst there is players not getting rakeback the rooms will continue to work with rakeback affiliates. If anyone thinks that the rooms would be better off giving all players rakeback then think of this:

Whilst there are rakeback affiliates, normal affiliates will think "them damn rakeback affiliates gotten another of my players the theiving ******* "

Imagine if there was no rakeback afffiliates and rooms simply dropped your commission on players on a constant basis because they gave them rakeback - affiliates would be saying "them lousy ******* poker operators nicked some more of my money" because as sure as god made little green apples there would always be the worry that the room was saying they were giving rakeback when they was not! It would be too open to abuse from the operators.

Finally, look how much money is being made by non rakeback affiliates to see how much the rooms would be losing if they gave everyone rakeback!

Can anyone offer a solution that would work and not screw someone up?

**Betpartners** · 6 July 2009, 9:25 pm

Certain affiliates get treated differently in all sectors, not sure thats a valid reason.

In sportsbooks i know for a fact that certain affiliates are given banners etc that offer bigger free bets that are not available in the affiliate system.

Ladbrokes spring to mind straight away

there is never an even playing field and never will be

**Chalkie** · 6 July 2009, 9:31 pm

Heres a for instance:

Most of my business is done through PAS, now i want to operate a new rakeback site through my own devices, most rooms have agreed for me to have the ability to offer the same deals that i am offering now. 1 or 2 have not so now i have to compete with many sites including myself with an inferior deal. Well i cannot do that so cannot offer rakeback at these rooms or i will look a fool.

**CK - Schalk** · 7 July 2009, 2:08 am

Originally Posted by Chalkie

In my experience the bigger affs always get treated too well and the smaller affs have to scratch around for any little crumb. This is why i take onboard some of the newer rooms offering a decent deal - risking the collapse and losses - just to get a head start over the bigger affs.

Hi Chalk (Hey, it's almost like my name

)

Wouldn't you think the rooms offering rakeback themselves would put affiliates on a more level playing field?

It's always going to happen that affiliates that send more traffic are going to get better deal (higher rakeback) than the smaller guys. It's just business.

Now, if the room offered a standard rakeback deal, all affiliates must advertise the same rakeback rate, thereby leveling the playing field?

Now furthermore, for the actual poker room to calculate and credit player accounts once off instead of once per RB aff is going to be much quicker and more efficient, as I see it, and any discrepancies / queries can go straight to the operator, instead of to the aff and then to the operator, back to the aff, back to the player.

How will you know that they've credited what they say they have? You don't. But operators credit bonuses everyday that affiliates don't have any solid proof of. You can only pick your partners carefully, and trust that they are doing right by their affiliates.

My 2c.

**Chalkie** · 7 July 2009, 6:08 am

Originally Posted by CK - Schalk

Hi Chalk (Hey, it's almost like my name

)

Wouldn't you think the rooms offering rakeback themselves would put affiliates on a more level playing field?

I would think that the rooms should put people on a level playing field yes, but nope, they would rather offer bigger deals to some (and not always the big affiliates either) to try to get an edge over the competition. Which is why in my mind its the affiliates that need to get together and try to get a level playing field for all because the rooms never will. This will never happen either whilst rakeback and non rakeback affiliates cannot agree on it imo

It's always going to happen that affiliates that send more traffic are going to get better deal (higher rakeback) than the smaller guys. It's just business.

I understand this, however, it is a recipe for disaster in a way. A few years ago in the UK we had no builders because none had been trained and were in the ****. Now if the operators look after only the bigger affs then we will end up with the same in our industry. Yes give the big guys the cream, give them freebies, send them flowers do whatever, but dont give them the chance to offer more than anyone else because sooner or later there will be no one else. Then when there is no one else the big affs will be telling the rooms what to do and shouting the odds.

Now furthermore, for the actual poker room to calculate and credit player accounts once off instead of once per RB aff is going to be much quicker and more efficient, as I see it, and any discrepancies / queries can go straight to the operator, instead of to the aff and then to the operator, back to the aff, back to the player.

The majority of rooms do this now and so they should. The last thing we need is the industry getting a bad name because of some unscrupulous rakeback affiliates hitting and running.

How will you know that they've credited what they say they have? You don't. But operators credit bonuses everyday that affiliates don't have any solid proof of. You can only pick your partners carefully, and trust that they are doing right by their affiliates.

When it comes to rakeback the player would soon be screaming if they did not in my experience.

**JonOfFinsbury** · 7 July 2009, 6:19 am

I take it you have all seen the response?

https://www.egrmagazine.com/news/indu...y-charge.thtml

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