Negative Carryover

**casinodireto** · 28 March 2013, 3:24 pm

When I started out, I was hesitant to promote programs that have negative carryover, but read on this and other forums that it's really not a big deal and that you always come out on top with bet365.

Building a high quality site for about 2 years, relying only on white hat techniques and promoting bet365 heavily, it seemed that all my efforts finally paid off.

Visitors, signups and new depositors have been rising exponentially.

However, a couple of unlucky wins and I've just been set back for another 6 months. This is so frustrating.

My final verdict, negative carryover sucks!

I tried reaching out to bet365, but my request for leniency was declined by their management.

I have no other choice but to replace bet365 as my main focus with something else that has no negative carryover. The risks are too high and you risk all your hard work not paying off.

These are my thoughts on the subject.

**TravG** · 28 March 2013, 11:10 pm

Yep it sucks if someone hits big. Is it just one player that has really set you back? If so did you ask them if they could ringfence the player? I do not know what bet365's policies are but a lot of casinos will fence the player if you ask.

**GCG** · 29 March 2013, 2:31 am

they do not make deals to start fresh again.

only if you have lots of traffic you may stay in the black numbers for most of the the time

negative carryover is a burden :

Bet365 affiliate program warning

**casinodireto** · 29 March 2013, 3:33 am

Originally Posted by UltimatePokerBonus

Yep it sucks if someone hits big. Is it just one player that has really set you back? If so did you ask them if they could ringfence the player? I do not know what bet365's policies are but a lot of casinos will fence the player if you ask.

I did ask, but they informed me my request had been denied.

**Fortune Palace** · 29 March 2013, 3:37 am

My thoughts - stick with it.

If you pull them now, you'll never overcome the negative balance. Even if you don't see positive figures for 6 months, you will eventually - in the long-term, casinos and bookies make money.

We've been where you are with bet365 and even now we'll have negative months, but the larger your player database, the more you spread the risk.
That just takes time. Two years is a decent amount of time, but if your figures are rising exponentially, imagine where you'll be in another year, or in another five.

One of the best things about 365 is the way that players tend to use all betting channels, so we have big players on the sportsbook who we sent via the casino, and vice versa.

Negative carryover is a pain, but in 365's case, it's a pain I've found worth putting up with!

**casinodireto** · 29 March 2013, 4:36 pm

I appreciate your comments, Fortune Palace, but my negative balance is the same as the balance of my withdrawals thus far!

And if I keep at it, who's to say that just when I am about to hit zero again I won't get another huge win and go way back into the negative again?

I just don't think this is worth it anymore. This thing with negative carryover makes the affiliate business much more of a gamble than real work that is guaranteed to pay off. Think about it, you're at the mercy of luck much more than anything else. You can be the best affiliate in the world and work like mad for years, but you're still pretty much dependent on luck.

With other programs that don't have negative carryover, it's much less about luck and much more about hard work paying off.

**CONMEN** · 6 May 2013, 11:57 am

Same here, big loss yesterday.. 7k and covered all my last 3-month winnings... Really annoying, when at the same time I'm working like mad promoting bet365.. That's sad. Hope we see better days

**Gewinnertipps** · 31 May 2013, 5:21 am

Bet365 would have one of the best aff. programs, if they would remove that neg. carry over. If 1 player hits big, you will need months/years to get back to a positive balance. So please BET365 remove that nco and you will have more happy affiliates

**lowrisk** · 31 May 2013, 6:22 am

I can completely sympathise with you on this. Negative carryover is difficult for an affiliate. You could spend your time and money trying to send players to be hit with a big negative. Quite simply most affiliates haven't got the finances or the time to do this, it's a full time job to some of us. I can see you frustration. If Bet365 removed negative carryover, it would make my year!

**Silizio** · 31 May 2013, 6:34 am

Never worked with them because of this NCO. There are a few things, that i look first, when i want to sign up.
1. Commission Rates
2. Neg. Carry over or not?

And Bet365 is a good brand to promote, but this NCO...no way i will waste my efforts with them! Change it and you got 1 more affiliate!

**Sportwettenaustausch** · 3 June 2013, 8:09 am

Same here,if 365 would remove that neg. carry over, they would imo improve a lot! Would be nice if someone from 365 can reply to this threat and give a clear statement, why they are so hardheaded regarding this.

**KasinoKing** · 3 June 2013, 2:40 pm

Originally Posted by Silizio

Never worked with them because of this NCO. There are a few things, that i look first, when i want to sign up.
1. Commission Rates
2. Neg. Carry over or not?

And Bet365 is a good brand to promote, but this NCO...no way i will waste my efforts with them! Change it and you got 1 more affiliate!

Yep - I wish I had never started promoting them.

I have been promoting them since I first launched my website in early 2006 - in those days I didn't even know about looking out for such terms!
To be fair, everything was OK for the first 2.5 years and I earned quite well, but then my player(s) started winning in November 2008...
From then to now is 54 months - 47 of those months I have been in an NCO situation!
I did manage to get over $100 and get paid twice in 2011, but the last payment before that was in 2008.

The most annoying thing was when I didn't quite get to the minimum cash-out of $100 and then saw my earnings vanish due to player winnings in subsequent months

I would strongly recommend that only the really big affiliates work with Bet365 - for the smaller ones like myself you are on a hiding to nothing.

KK

**universal4** · 3 June 2013, 3:28 pm

Thanks for that KK.

Don't forget, that had you been based in the US, unless I am mistaken the minimum is above $100.

And when you add to the NCO along with the 5 player requirement, it's very easy for a small affiliate to never be paid.

If an affiliate sends a player that earns revenue, the affiliate should be paid reguardless of how many players have been sent.

Rick
Universal4

**TheGooner** · 3 June 2013, 7:59 pm

I don't disagree with your sentiments gents - and your points are well made. It's very hard as a starting affiliate with a small readership / player base to be motivated to promote a site if you are working off a large negative.

I work with programs on both NCO and without NCO, and even with our player levels we still have negative months. In some cases when I do my annual reports I see that a couple of programs without NCO will have paid us MORE in affiliate share than they actually earned in revenue. This is crazy and cannot be sustainable. There are not too many industries that will pay affiliates or sales people when no REAL profit is made.

The facts are that Negative Carry Over (NCO) is not a predatory tool - it is a clear value accounting method that enables the property to accurately pay the affiliate a correct percentage share of the REAL value of the players sent to the property over the lifetime of those players.

Of course it's easier for an affiliate when they work with a site that does not employ NCO - but only in the sense that the affiliate gets paid more than they should receive for the lifetime of a player.

I do not believe that it is a co-incidence that this industry is rife with stories of programs scraping, and failing to track players, and removing players from affiliate accounts, and that in 99% of cases is the properties that do not employ Negative Carry Over that stand accused of doing it.

Additionally we are seeing reports that programs closing affiliate accounts due to not bringing in new players, and again it is the programs that are not using Negative Carry Over that are having to resort to these practices.

Companies with NCO programs (PinnacleSports, Betting Partners, Bet365) tend to be at the top of the industry, providing good customer flow, and good affiliate service, and have been around for years. They are safe, secure programs that provide good customer experience. I recommend them.

**universal4** · 3 June 2013, 9:30 pm

I really do not disagree with much of what you said Gooner, and once again you step in and speak the other side of the story, did so well, and it needed to be done.

And in fact if it wasn't for the damn quota I would be more prone to recommend them to smaller affiliates.

I just want paid on the FIRST player, because not paying until the FIFTH player raises the likelyhood that NCO will nail you before you get there....

Rick
Universal4

**georgeo07** · 5 June 2013, 4:34 am

Hello,
Besides NCO, the worst seems to be the rule with five affiliates recommend.
What matters more is how many people or how much money do you bring? If
you bring five people who play minimum deposit ,or if you bring one, but playing 20,000 euros, say ...?

**casinodireto** · 7 June 2013, 5:35 am

Originally Posted by TheGooner

The facts are that Negative Carry Over (NCO) is not a predatory tool - it is a clear value accounting method that enables the property to accurately pay the affiliate a correct percentage share of the REAL value of the players sent to the property over the lifetime of those players.

Of course it's easier for an affiliate when they work with a site that does not employ NCO - but only in the sense that the affiliate gets paid more than they should receive for the lifetime of a player.

I do not believe that it is a co-incidence that this industry is rife with stories of programs scraping, and failing to track players, and removing players from affiliate accounts, and that in 99% of cases is the properties that do not employ Negative Carry Over that stand accused of doing it.

Additionally we are seeing reports that programs closing affiliate accounts due to not bringing in new players, and again it is the programs that are not using Negative Carry Over that are having to resort to these practices.

I strongly disagree with your opinion on this, Gooner.

Your point would be valid only for perhaps the top 10 affiliates in the industry who have a myriad of sources of revenue from various casinos and a huge player base.

But let's take the example of Bet365 and a minor affiliate. The negative carryover policy in this situation is clearly for the benefit of Bet365 and to the detriment of the minor affiliate.

Let's say a player wins in excess of 100K in a given month. Given the way casinos work, Bet365 would easily cover this loss through revenue it generates from the remaining vast player base. However, the minor affiliate will never be able to cover this loss, especially if they are promoting Bet365 heavily.

In this case, sharing this loss with the affiliate until the affiliate makes up is hardly what I would call a fair method of settling accounts. Also, don't forget that the big affiliates have certain leverage and are the ones who can actually bargain their way out of such a predicament, while the small affiliate has no real choice.

**ogpaper** · 7 June 2013, 9:23 am

Commission structures in sports betting are very flawed, to begin with. Bookmakers, contrary to the popular belief, don't work like the casinos. A good bookmaker will make money from the spread (vig), rather than from the losses of the bettors, i.e. they make money when people lose and win. So they always try to have the same $ amount on either side of the bet, which in turn guarantees that there will always be winners, something not very appealing to affiliates. NCO is just rubbing salt in the wound.

If we talk about fairness, a bookie should offer commission based on the vig of your players, rather than losses, the same way poker rooms offer commission based on the rake they take. I am sure that this, however, would be even less appealing to small affiliates

**chl888** · 7 June 2013, 11:46 am

youd better try to find right referals rather than complaining here.
you can gain profit from that non experienced beginers

**DaftDog** · 9 June 2013, 1:37 pm

I agree totally with TheGooner. I believe that as an affiliate you are in a business partnership with the affiliate company to produce revenue for them and for yourself. If you're not producing a profit how can you expect to be paid? Simple economics.

I pride myself in being an independent business man and I don't expect to receive charity from anybody, because that is what 'no negative carry over' really is, charity.

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