Does this sound like Online Roulette Fraud to you?

**CPReport** · 21 November 2011, 12:56 pm

I had a player come to me the other day from Conan Casino and he told me they denied his payout because of clause 97 in their terms that state that if the casino deems that a player is attempting fraud towards the casino or manipulating games they can suspend or close the players account.

The player is accused of doubling up his outside bets at European Roulette. He bet 8 euro and then 16 and then 32 in a row. How is this manipulating the game exactly? I'm not a roulette player but to me it just sounds like a lame strategy at best.

The casino manager responded to my email and told me this; and I quote

"As the screenshot clearly displays this is a specific case where the player doubled up on outside bets.
It is clear to see a pattern and this is obviously an attempt to defraud the casino.
Clause 97 refers to game manipulation, and I don’t think it gets more manipulative than this.
".

Since I wrote the manager at Conan about this issue he is willing to give the player back his original 20 euro deposit but he has been banned from the casino.

Does this seem like manipulation of roulette? Any roulette players want to chime in on this?

Thanks,
Rick

**Simmo!** · 21 November 2011, 2:58 pm

Hi Rick,

My take fwiw: assuming it's Roulette as we know it then you simply can't "manipulate" a game of chance unless the software is flawed. So it's either that or the casino simply doesn't want to pay the player for some reason. Seeing as the website says the software is "TST Certified", I'd guess the latter.

Using a "pattern" doesn't make the slightest bit of a difference to the expected returns. It's a game of luck and it has a house edge. Long term the player can't win. But it would be amusing to see how they explain that someone can manipulate a game of chance though: my bet is, if you ask them, they won't even try.

Cheers,

Simmo!

**JackTenSuited** · 21 November 2011, 3:11 pm

sounds like he's using the martingale system, one of the more popular roulette systems, but as with the rest of them the casino will always retain the edge.
As simmo! said no system will change the house edge so looks like the casino is trying to find excuses not to pay, any reputable casino would payout players using this 'system'

**universal4** · 21 November 2011, 7:24 pm

Yes that is the "Martingale" and it isn't really popular with real roulette players, but it is the system that is most promoted as a working roulette system....but like a few others have stated...it's a game of chance....

As a general rule, I doubt many properties would ban a player using this system since it is flawed....and those that do should be avoided....

Rick
Universal4

**bonusbetting** · 21 November 2011, 8:59 pm

Sounds very dodgy, Martingale is probably the most common 'system' and I don't know how it could be considered fraud, since the house still has the edge. Perhaps their bonus conditions are too loose.

**CPReport** · 21 November 2011, 9:21 pm

Thanks for the reply guys.

I agree Simmo. If it's truly a game of chance I'm not sure what the issue is here? I just did the same game play at Intertops for about 5 minutes to try and duplicate and well, you guessed it... I lost.

Although it appears to be similar to the Martingale Strategy, it's actually the opposite... sort of. Wild Jack Casino offers tips about roulette betting systems xxxhttps://www.wildjackcasino.com/roulette-betting-systems.html and according to them as well as Wikipedia they say this:

Under the Martingale system, you start with a certain bet amount. Every time you lose, you double your bet; every time you win, you go back to your original bet.

The player in this case doubled his bets every time he won.

He also did not accept any bonuses. Bonuses were only offered on a 35 euro deposit or more and he only deposited 20.

Again, thanks for the input on this. I'm going to take it to the Conan Casino manager and see if he's willing to give a more detailed explanation of why they considered this type of game play manipulation.

Rick

**bonusbetting** · 21 November 2011, 9:38 pm

Whether it's doubling on losses or wins, it doesn't give the player an edge. Martingale results in lots of small wins and sooner or later a big loss. Reverse Martingale results in lots of small losses with the occasional big win. The casino is crazy to ban a player for betting on streaks. It also seems entirely unethical.

The only way to cheat online casinos that I'm aware of is to take advantage of bonus offers with positive expected value after the rollover - there are very few of those around these days because of the history of bonus abuse.

**AFFcoins** · 22 November 2011, 2:21 am

They prob assumed he is a bonus hunter trying to double up then slow play out.

**FutureCasino** · 22 November 2011, 8:34 am

Apologies if that's a stupid question, but i thought that in land casinos, you are kicked out if you use such system?

**robertmedl** · 22 November 2011, 12:05 pm

Originally Posted by FutureCasino

Apologies if that's a stupid question, but i thought that in land casinos, you are kicked out if you use such system?

You'd be welcomed with open arms at any land-based casino in which you played with this strategy. Period.

**nico84** · 22 November 2011, 2:37 pm

Man, they are crazy (the casino), that´s for sure an unethical behavior they made.

Their explanation sounds kind of stupid to me...

**Puma** · 22 November 2011, 5:20 pm

Automatic rogue pit for them ! I had some fun with their live support and here is what the nice support team had to say.

Please wait, one of our support representatives will be with you shortly.
You are now chatting with Helga E. - Conan Casino Support
18:15Helga E.: Hello and welcome. How may I assist you?
18:15Christopher: lo, I was wondering if you could tell me if all your games are random?
18:15Christopher: What I mean is do they follow a random number generator rule?
18:16Helga E.: The casino games are fair, random and tested. All of our software is audited by Technical Systems Testing (TST) ?a third party auditor to confirm that the games are fair and true.
18:16Helga E.: All hands are dealt by a certified Random Number Generator (RNG), which is also audited independently. For more information on the game fairness and Random Number Generator, please notice our Fair Gaming statement.
18:16Christopher: Oh great, so all the games are random then
18:16Helga E.: So you may be sure that your hands are dealt right
18:16Helga E.: do you already have an account with us?
18:16Christopher: No i do not, I wanted a bit of information prior to signing up
18:17Helga E.: Yes, sire you understood it right.
18:17Christopher: Ok so I just have one more question.
18:18Christopher: If every game uses the rule of RNg then it would be impossible to use any tpye of system correct? I mean by the casino or me as a player
18:18Helga E.: Are you ready to create an account right now?
18:18Helga E.: Yes sir.
18:19Christopher: okay excellent, you have been most helpful Helga
18:19Christopher: Have a great night.
18:19Helga E.: Just create an account and you will see how awesome it is
18:19Christopher: ok I sure will !

**CPReport** · 22 November 2011, 7:22 pm

That's frickin hilarious! I'll have to forward that to the Lobby Manager at Conan. He just wrote me back today completely ignoring that I asked him if roulette at Conan is a game of chance. I sent a reply asking him again. I'll post his response (if I get one).

Rick

**DaftDog** · 22 November 2011, 11:13 pm

Originally Posted by Nodepositworld

Automatic rogue pit for them ! I had some fun with their live support and here is what the nice support team had to say.

18:17Helga E.: Yes, sire you understood it right.

Lol, I pissed myself when she called you "Sire".

**davemerry** · 23 November 2011, 5:55 am

Originally Posted by Nodepositworld

18:17Helga E.: Yes, sire you understood it right.
18:17Christopher: Ok so I just have one more question.
18:18Christopher: If every game uses the rule of RNg then it would be impossible to use any tpye of system correct? I mean by the casino or me as a player
18:18Helga E.: Are you ready to create an account right now?
18:18Helga E.: Yes sir.
18:19Christopher: okay excellent, you have been most helpful Helga
18:19Christopher: Have a great night.
18:19Helga E.: Just create an account and you will see how awesome it is
18:19Christopher: ok I sure will !

Gold.

**nico84** · 23 November 2011, 7:52 am

Good job!

Originally Posted by Nodepositworld

Automatic rogue pit for them ! I had some fun with their live support and here is what the nice support team had to say.

Please wait, one of our support representatives will be with you shortly.
You are now chatting with Helga E. - Conan Casino Support
18:15Helga E.: Hello and welcome. How may I assist you?
18:15Christopher: lo, I was wondering if you could tell me if all your games are random?
18:15Christopher: What I mean is do they follow a random number generator rule?
18:16Helga E.: The casino games are fair, random and tested. All of our software is audited by Technical Systems Testing (TST) ?a third party auditor to confirm that the games are fair and true.
18:16Helga E.: All hands are dealt by a certified Random Number Generator (RNG), which is also audited independently. For more information on the game fairness and Random Number Generator, please notice our Fair Gaming statement.
18:16Christopher: Oh great, so all the games are random then
18:16Helga E.: So you may be sure that your hands are dealt right
18:16Helga E.: do you already have an account with us?
18:16Christopher: No i do not, I wanted a bit of information prior to signing up
18:17Helga E.: Yes, sire you understood it right.
18:17Christopher: Ok so I just have one more question.
18:18Christopher: If every game uses the rule of RNg then it would be impossible to use any tpye of system correct? I mean by the casino or me as a player
18:18Helga E.: Are you ready to create an account right now?
18:18Helga E.: Yes sir.
18:19Christopher: okay excellent, you have been most helpful Helga
18:19Christopher: Have a great night.
18:19Helga E.: Just create an account and you will see how awesome it is
18:19Christopher: ok I sure will !

**Puma** · 23 November 2011, 10:15 am

Lol, I pissed myself when she called you "Sire".

Well I did just get knighted at Mid evil times so she must have realized she was talking to a real knight

**CPReport** · 23 November 2011, 1:31 pm

Okay the good news. Conan Casino has agreed to pay the player his winnings. The bad news. They won't even ackowledge my questions about games of chance and manipulations. I've ask the Lobby Manager twice now about it.

First email reply:

Hi Rick,

According to the the terms we are not required to payout.
All other casinos powered by various software providers implement a policy of zero tolerance for this type of fraudulent activity.

However, in the spirit of the games we have decided to act in a lenient manner with this specific player.
Please make a note, this is an exception to the rule and in future cases we will refuse to payout.

Second email reply:

Hi Rick,

To my understanding this dispute has been resolved.
I don’t understand what the issue is.

So there you have it, we are now left to come to our own conclusions about Conan Casino's game of chance manipulation policies.

Thanks again for the input everyone.

Rick

**FictionNet** · 13 March 2012, 7:38 am

I received spam for Conan today. Loads of it. I've reported it to conanpartners.

**FictionNet** · 15 March 2012, 9:30 am

I've had more spam for Conan today. I reported it again to ConanPartners, although they haven't yet responded to the last lot I sent to them.

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